Wednesday, January 26, 2011

Aimee Martin Responds

A few weeks ago, I posted a blog entry, "New Year, More Stupid".  I had copied (word for word) an ad that was placed on a local classifieds site (classified.sarnia.com).  The advertisement was for Aimee's business that included a number of services.  I inserted links to sites that explained what some of those services claim to be and to explain what they are not.

Just this morning I noticed that there was a comment awaiting moderation (the blog automatically sends comments into moderation for old posts) from Aimee.  I have approved it on that entry but have copied it below.

Aimee Martin said...

Ok... first of all, I am one of the Registered Myomassologists that you have blatantly criticized without any personal knowledge what-so-ever. So before you make comments that you cant substantiate, please do take me up on an offer for a treatment, then blog about it! At least have some knowledge before you open your mouth. I am registered by the largest massage therapy body in Canada... the Natural Health Care Practioners of Canda...and we recieve the same "D" designation as all the other community colleges, medix, etc... I have all my training in Swedish Massage, just like any other therapist you would see. Most insurance companies do recognize us, and the United States employs Myomassologists throughout their health care system. Myomassology originated from the US Association of Massage Therapists in 1972. Our massage is very hands on, and not spiritual or based on energy- although many find merit in those treatments as well. And No, we are not into making a quick buck, and again, get your minds out of the gutter because we do not perform that type of massage! In fact, why not ask one of the several nurses and other health professionals that have become clients because they were thrilled with the massage they recieved from us. So before you pass judgement, I welcome you to come in and have a massage...heck I will give it you for free...but you might be covered for your additional treatments by your insurance provider...you might want to check into that! :)
First of all, I don't think I made any mention about "myomassology" at all - the only links related to the advertisement for "myomassology" related to the use of the word "holistic" and when there was mention of correcting leg length.  Since we're talking about substantiating claims, let me remind you that I made NO claims about massage therapy being bunk and it was you (Aimee) who made the claims about bunk (see below).  The ball is in your court to substantiate the claims (you won't because you can't - the evidence is counter to your claims).

With that said about "myomassology", it seems that it is massage therapy on woo-woo.  The link suggests that the concept behind "myomassology" was to take massage therapy from basic legitimacy and into complete stupidity.  You (Aimee) seem to be trying to take "myomassology" back to massage therapy and, if that's the case, I applaud you for that (you have a lot of baggage to ditch, however, first).

I'm all for massages (though my wife will attest that I don't care for them myself) as long as they are being advertised honestly (see Massage Therapy) - to relax a person and relieve pain.
 
Also, to criticize claims, I don't need "personal knowledge" - I am familiar with the claims being made and where they are bunk, I called them bunk.  I included the ad in my blog because of the references to mismatched leg lengths, Reflexology, Cranio Sacral Therapy and Fire Cupping - all of which are bunk.  I've talked about named techniques (like Contraction Release Therapy, etc.) in the past - most of which are bunk too. Since the claim isn't distinct, I didn't get into it.  The only information about it that I could find included "correcting leg length" and bullshit regarding "correcting muscle imbalances".  If you have any specific information on it, I'd be happy to review it.
 
So Aimee, if you ditch the woo-woo, the massage therapy is valid. 
 
Thanks for the response and I apologize if you mistook the point I was trying to make.  I hope this makes it a little clearer.

29 comments:

Aimee Martin said...

Ok, Sarnia Skeptic, fair enough. In this country, we are entitled to freedom of thought, freedom of expression, and freedom of speech. That being said, there are people who DO find both merit and relief from the various therapies that you mentioned. Even as a student, I doubted many of the modalities. However, I have received fantastic feedback on the treatments. The reality is that if it works for someone, then it is worth doing. My career choice is one of helping others. That is my goal everyday when I go into my clinic... to help my clients walk away feeling relieved, relaxed and refreshed.

I believe in what I do, period. Whether other people agree or not- I have decided- really doesn't matter as long as my clients are reaping the benefits. I have studied at length all of the modalities that I perform- which included many case studies. Regardless, those who believe, believe... and those who don't, don't. 90% of my clients utilize swedish massage (with some contraction release, because it distinguishes me from others). There are other modalities available, however, to meet the needs of the general public. I also do not stage anything, or make people believe things that are untrue. If I measure someone's legs and they are even, then they're even. I don't pursue it. I don't try to fix something that isn't broken, sort-to-speak.

There has been a great shift towards preventative care, and massage fits perfectly into that scenario for some people. Now, I could argue with you and we could hash out my case studies against yours, but honestly it's not in my best interest. Accepting that you are indeed a skeptic entitled to your beliefs is much more dignified. So please extend me that same level of respect. We both obviously live and work in the same community and my practice and the clients I serve are very important to me. I wish you well, and maybe you could send your wife my way to give it a try?? :) Then she could report back to you on how wonderfully relaxing and refreshing she feels afterwards. Just an idea.

sarniaskeptic said...

Aimee, if someone thinks it works from them, that doesn't mean it worked for them.

My career choice was to help others - my hobby, too, is to help others. Calling out people for misrepresenting science is a great way to help people.

I don't doubt that you believe in what you do - I'm not suggesting that you are willfully lying to people. I think you simply fail to understand basic science and logical fallacies.

The plural of anecdote is not data - start with that one.

Reflexology is bunk - if you have evidence to support it, present it. Pretending to be better than someone and acting like that justifies not defending your claim seems rather childish. Back up your claims or stop claiming they're defensible.

The same goes for fire cupping, cranial sacral therapy and leg length adjustments (sure manipulations are being done there but not the kind you claim).

Your suggestion of a 'shift' to preventative care suggests that you've been sold a bill of goods. Preventative medicine is not 'alternative' - exercise, diet and the like are all 'conventional' ideas. You want prevention? How about vaccines or even things like washing your hands (science!)? Sanitation systems (science/technology)? Annual exams? Pap smears? Breast exams? Condoms? Birth control? Fluoride (whether or not you agree with it in your water)? Brushing & flossing? Etc. Etc. Etc.

I have made it clear that massage is not woo-woo where it simply claims to temporarily relieve pain, improve mood and offer relaxation. Beyond that, to claim that it prevents something or cures a disease or condition is stretching beyond the evidence.

My wife, I'm certain, would enjoy the massage - she finds them relaxing and refreshing. She wouldn't be in for the bullshit though.

I wasn't going to address the 'your case studies against mine' but I can't simply let it go. You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. Science has procedures/methods that enable us to limit biases and subjectivity. We also have testable theories and a pretty extensive understanding of the human body that make it pretty clear that the proposed method of action for reflexology is not possible (and not based in reality). Case studies that involve subjective reporting on non-binary outcomes aren't impressive and, surely, won't have us tossing out our current ideas/models on human physiology. The same goes for cranial sacral therapy and fire cupping.

Present the evidence. We'll be waiting.

Anonymous said...

Reflexology by Science Based Medicine.

Aimee said...

Sarnia Skeptic,

I was just trying to be nice and drop it because we are never going to agree, obviously.

You think it's childish that I don't want to waste any more time on this blog defending myself? No, truly, I am just way too busy and the negativity of it all is just too draining.

I respect that you have your own beliefs, period. My position on this is "that I simply agree to disagree".

Wishing you well...

Aimee

Anonymous said...

God i love the woo response to criticisim, you can set your watch to it.

1. "Hey, how about we just not talk about me, and i won't talk about you."

2. " You want evidence? I am not going to waste my time providing evidence."

3. " I am not going to talk any more. Give me my ball, i am going home. "

If it was worth it to post the first time, it is worth it to provide the mountains of evidence one has. To say it is worth it to type a childish tirade , but not to provide the real evidence that you claim , really shows where your priorities are.

Ryan Hulshof said...

Btw the comment about setting your watch to woo was mine. For some reason it didn't give me the option of putting my name.

Anonymous said...

I don't get how proving effectiveness of what you do can be draining. I think you gave her just enough rope to hang herself. This approach to skepticism is what I like to see. Great work.
Makes up for you just dismissing homeopathy, I think.

Anonymous said...

Aimee just admitted that she dips her modestly valid massage therapy in bullshit and deep fries it in horse piss.

Beyond recognition and validity.

Aim, you are choosing to be ignorant and now you are suggesting that you have no problem lying about what you do/can do.

Aimee Martin said...

I do not lie... you are all ignorant, not me. I have a regular job, a clinic I run, four young kids and a husband that works in excess of 60 hours a week...so yes I find this very draining. I don't have time, like the rest of you jobless people, to sit and type out my "mountains" of evidence. Grow up all of you and get some sort of a life. I've had enough of this.

Sarnia Skeptic, I have asked a computer expert to look into your personal information and I have a lawyer waiting in the wings. I highly suggest, that at the very least, you remove my business name, personal name, and address from your website. You cannot, in your freedoms, instigate defamation of character, slander, etc against others, where it hurts their freedoms to earn a living. That, my dear, is a fact... since you are so big on facts.

I'm not being childish, as some have implied. I just don't have the time or energy you all seem to have- so look up all the information yourself. Do the research, from a non-biased perspective. Closed minded people are the reason the world is in the state it is in... I am going to worry about the things that matter to me, and that does not include you or your pathetic followers.

And whoever anonymously called me Aim... get a life... you don't have a right to call me by Aim...only people I love and respect have that honour... ;)

P.S. I wasn't kidding about the lawyer. This is your one and only warning...the next communication you will receive will be from my lawyer. I take my career very seriously, and some skeptic that hides his personal information is not going to destroy my reputation or credibility.

Anonymous said...

Aim, Fuck You and your lawyer too.

One can not be sued for speaking the truth.

It is up to you to prove your extraordinary claims, not us.

Aimee Martin is a fraud.

You get a real life.

Stop Robbie Thomas said...

Aimee,
I know the blog author well enough that I feel I can say this: he would happily reveal himself to your lawyer if you choose to sue him.

I have advised him of your most recent "comment" on the site.

He will sleep tight given that your case fails because you chose to become a public figure by advertising -
You are "fair game" for public scrutiny.
You have also chosen to post on the blog with your name and personal information.
It does not appear that he has misrepresented your claims in any way. From what I can gather it was a direct copy from an ad you placed.
The burden of proof is on you to prove efficacy/validity of any claims you make. It is my belief that Sarnia Skeptic would willingly publish information that is contrary to what he has provided if you are able to provide evidence to support your claims.

It appeared that Sarnia Skeptic had moved on. If you were hoping it was going to die I would wager that you're taking the wrong approach. I think it was a threat of a lawsuit that drove us to creating www.stoprobbie.com. What domain name do you think they should consider for you?
www.anothercluelesspersonclaimingtosuebecausetheirfeelingswerehurtbysomeonepointingoutthetruth.com ?

not scared of telling the truth said...

Stop Robbie Thomas, that web address is too long to read in the comments. Maybe www.aimeebullshitmartinwoo.com would be easier to remember.

We love to hear the threat of lawyers. We haven't seen one yet come forward to defend their defenseless claim of their supposed clients. Sounds like more woo coming out of your mouth Aim!

Anonymous said...

Can't people in this small town get real jobs like prostitution or pornographers? There is so much bullshit and woo here.

Aimee, why get an HR management program diploma from Lambton in 2009? Did you not have enough faith that your old scam would work here? Or were you concerned that there was too much competition in the woo market?

Sarnia said...

What bothers me most about this is that in an email conversation with Aimee's 60 hour a week husband, I offered to edit her ad (on my blog) and remove her personal details if Aimee simply emailed me to let me know that was what she wanted. It, obviously, wasn't what she wanted - she chose to engage me and others on the blog. We gave her ample opportunity to make her case but that was clearly not her intent.

I've made my direction and methods of argument very clear on this site. I will point out fallacies and biases and I'm not one for just letting the bullshit go. This isn't simply about opinions, the truth matters - especially when it comes to informing/misleading the public about their health and healthcare.

If you want to push woo, attempt to engage me with childish arguments or threaten me with bullshit lawsuits, I'll give you all the exposure you want.

Oh, email me @ sarniaskeptic@gmail.com if you're serious about suing me. You don't need to waste your time engaging some 'computer expert' to find out who I am. (you could always go see a psychic, they'll, well, make shit up - just like you!)

Aim, darling, you made yourself a public figure so the bar for libel is much higher. Even if you were protected under the rights of a private individual (you aren't) you have not been libeled (nor defamed - you should look up that word too!). You haven't presented a single shred of evidence to suggest that what has been published on my blog about you is incorrect (it isn't).

Anonymous said...

All douches claim to be finding out who you are and that they are going to sue you.

Aimee is claiming to be finding out who you are and that she is going to sue you.

Aimee must be a douche.

Trivia: Is that deductive or inductive reasoning?

Anonymous said...

If someone had an illegal way to get your personal information would they not be rather stupid to advertise it?

Maybe nonthinking is a pre qualifier for woo-woo school.

Arnold said...

You don't need to go any further with Aimee because her unscientific treatments were given a great skeptical treatment. Let the last words be her whining and threatening a lawsuit. You couldn't make her look worse than she is doing herself.

You did not attack her character, you pointed out her unscientific services. There is not a court of law that would see it any different. Keep fighting the good fight.

Anonymous said...

That website http://www.simplyserenitycentre.com is gold!

I'll make a screen capture-it ruins any claims to not being a public personality.

Skeptics unite.

Anonymous said...

Copy the entire web site with just a single push of the button!

http://www.httrack.com/

Just didn't copy the pictures of her facilities. Does someone know of a better application that does that too that is free?

Yes, Skeptics unite

Anonymous said...

Is this the same Aimee Martin who was selling scented candles at a horrendous profit? Obviously, that business model smelled too like.....

Aimee said...

Ok, first of all, I wasn't threatening a lawsuit... I simply said that I would have my lawyer contact sarnia skeptic to take my personal information off...( I responded with my name, but did not include my personal number, address, etc) I don't care if he blogs the hell out of what I do...just don't make it personal. Like I have tried to say multiple times before... we all believe what we believe. I can't change that, and I'm not going to pretend that I can.

I like how someone posted my website "from Me" supposedly... Go ahead. I am registered and insured. I am not a scam. I love what I do.

As for candles, yes, that was me. I sold the candles at what the company recommended. I only made a profit of a couple dollars per candle. BTW, I still love those candles and use them all the time.

The reality is that only ignorant people talk the way you all talk. Swearing, seriously? Yes, you've all ruffled my feathers... but I've decided to walk away from this site for good. Go ahead and bash me all you want. The more hits you get to this website, the more people will realize how stupid your arguments are and how you can't be "diplomatic" about this whole situation, like I initially tried to do. It's sad, really.

As for Sarnia Skeptic... I actually appreciated your attempt at being civil. What I do not appreciate is the ugly comments made by others. It's really unfair. You are all right... I should never have responded in the first place, but I was upset at the time... once the back and forth started, I wish I hadn't bothered wasting my time or energy.

Simply put, we are never going to agree. Reality is that I have every right to practice here. I have done everything by the books. Please, yes I'm pleading, just leave this whole thing alone. Move on to a different topic.

If it makes you all happy, YOU WIN. Just leave me alone.

Sarnia Skeptic... I understand your position and what you do... I just don't know why it's fair that you can post all my information, without my knowledge initially, but I don't know who you are. If you are going to do what you do, then don't hide behind a screen name.

I did talk to a lawyer, but you're all right... I got way too involved in this. I should never have responded. I did myself a disservice. Not that I ever intended to pursue a lawsuit like you all "assumed". A simple letter, that was it.

Signing off forever... go ahead and have a field day... I will never know because I'll never be back.

Wishing you all new discoveries, and good health in the years to come.

not scared of telling the truth about Aimee Martin said...

When you contact a lawyer, you are looking for legal action to do something. When you say that you have contacted a lawyer, you are threatening to sue.

“We all believe what we believe. I can’t change that”. Sure you can, it takes some effort to learn something for what it is. Learn about real science and medical treatments that are proven and not the anecdote stuff you do support. Get a real job.

“Registered and insured” for malpractice? Or just fire, flood and theft of the office?

We are not ignorant. We are the opposite. We are informed and full of knowledge. We know the truth about your scam. You are the one who is ignorant (lack of knowledge) or you are aware of the fraud you are doing and we are calling you out on it.

You may walk away from the site forever but Google never forgets. People searching for information will see our information along with yours and will have a choice now to choose the correct one. Our arguments are based on reality and science.

“Ugly comments”? Why thank-you.

Wasting your time and energy is what you are doing every working day you are selling your scam for money.

Reality is that we have every right to call you out on your scam.

It is not about “us” winning. Ridding the world of woo-woo is our goal and then everyone wins.

What Google sees is public information and if you advertise in the paper, internet and on your web site your personal information, it becomes public information for all to see.

“I will never know because I'll never be back” – Yes you will, you can’t help yourself and see what others are saying.

Peace.

Aimee said...

Ok, you were right... I came back ONE more time, because I wanted to re-read something I posted to make sure it wasn't offensive... that is not my goal here.

So while I'm here, I will address the one comment you made. I AM insured for malpractice. My education is accredited. I am registered with a regulating body. So despite efforts to call me a fraud and a scam...it's simply not true.

I understand all the points ALL of you have made, ignoring the rude ones. I am not a closed-minded individual and I've tried to be fair throughout this whole process...

I do wish you all the best, sincerely.

Aimee

Arnold said...

Aimee, thank you for clarifying. I think that anytime a person mentions lawyers, it is going to inflame the situation - I would avoid that in the future.

You can change your mind. I left a job that I did for 23 years when I found out that a product we were selling was being oversold. By oversold I refer to the practice of claiming the product is capable of things that are known to be not correct. It was a big decision that me and my wife had to make but I couldn't continue to sell a product which was our main line product by lying about it. It caused me and my family financial hardship but I had to do it.

Some of what you do offers benefits and is supportable by evidence. Keep doing that and be honest with your clients about other parts. Honesty is valued in most other parts of society and I would expect the same in your business. My wife doesn't like massages unless I give them to her and I have never been to a massage therapist because it doesn't interest me but my business partner and her husband go for them regularly.

Reflexology makes major claims that a basic knowledge of biology and human physiology suggest can not possibly be true. I didn't know anything about cranial therapy or fire cupping but what I have read from the supplied links on this website. From my basic knowledge of hard sciences they look rather implausible as well.

I think skepticism is about realizing that changing your acceptance of a claim is okay. As we learn more and discover more that has to happen. I hope you consider the possibly that any and all of your beliefs may be mistaken and you reconsider at times why you might take a certain position over another.

Questioning is good. It might strengthen your position or it might change it but understand what supports your belief.

Anonymous said...

Regulation means nothing. Ontario is going to regulate Homeopathy and we all know that it is just water, sugar pills and placebos.

In other words, a regulated scam.

Doesn't mean it isn't BULLSHIT.

Ryan Hulshof said...

Hey aim, first i have to congratulate you on your professional tone, you definitely don't come off as desperately trying to defend your fleecing of the gullible. And in no way do you resort to every tired scare tactic that has ever been used by woosters.

Second, which computer expert have you hired to violate the privacy of the person running this site? You realize this is a crime right? To bypass the security features enacted by a website in order to gain personal information is something that they can, and will be charged for. No different than doing the same thing to steal credit card numbers, or anything of that nature.

Now, being in the computer repair game for 10+ years, i can say, in the city there are maybe, a half dozen or so people with the ability to do this that do professional service ( hey, here is something fun. Get your computer tech to describe the actions he did in order to find the personal information. Trust me i will understand what he is saying. Just the basic steps with proper names, should be easy to get if you really have some computer ninja willing to commit crimes for you.). Now i have trouble believing any of these fine men would consent to committing a crime for you. And moreso that they wouldn't drop you like a hot rock after seeing you admitting to having them commit a criminal act.

Third, aim, has your lawyer informed you of what slander is? You have to prove that you have the magic powers you say you do first. And if you can do that, well there is a cool million waiting for you at www.randi.org.

Fourth, lets be honest. You know you have no computer expert, and you know any lawyer would laugh you out of the room. Why not slink away, instead of making yourself look like a bigger fool by screaming about how draining this is, while continuing to come back here, and instead of posting any kind of rebuttal or fact, do the same old " your going to get sued, you better stop. " that has became the domain of every woo artist from Uri geller to sylvia browne?

not scared of telling the truth said...

The diploma coarse you took is a joke.

http://www.aromatica.ca/course-myomassology.html

It is a 6 month “course” consisting of six 7 day vacation stays in beautiful Cape Chin (Lion’s Head) resort with the rest of the study done “at home” with “an ‘easy to read’ glossy text book loaded with colourful illustrations”. All for a cost of $6,795. What a great deal – Not – you got had my dear Aim.

Then for another $450 fee, you get to register with http://www.canadianexaminingboard.com/register.htm
to get the designation of Registered Myomassology Practitioner.
Well I guess it is a quick and easy way of getting some meaningless initials after your name. Wow, what a fabulous regulating body, all you need to do is apply with the initial fee and then continue to pay annual fees to keep in good standing. Where is the regulator? SCAM is what that is!

Check out the ear candle warning on the home page of
http://www.canadianexaminingboard.com/index.htm

Aim, did you know that your so called “education” diploma you bought is under review according to their registration page? So you may not be “legitimate” (sic) after all!

That entire “Canadian Examining Board” is a scam and is full of WOO-WOO.

I had a good deep laugh after going through http://www.aromatica.ca/

No wonder there is so much woo around. This stuff is crap!

You don’t fool me Aimee Martin.

Anonymous said...

Aim, did you and Serina discuss over the backyard fence that you needed to get away from the kids and take 6 week long breaks together? Did you practice on yourselves too or were you doing that before the course even started (not that there is anything wrong with that)?

Then, open a parlor together so you can continue in the disguise of going to work?

Aimee said...

I was not talking about being registered with the Canadian Examining Board, but with the Natural Health Care Practitioners of Canada, which is valid and the biggest organization in Canada. We did our hands on training in that time, and our book study at home. Nothing wrong with that. Did you know you can get your highschool education that way too? University? I worked hard for my diploma, harder than I ever did in community college or university. My exams were hell.

If you are going to keep bashing me, don't hide behind anonymous. Arnold, thank you for at least trying to be kind in your response. This whole blog has changed my perspective on a lot of things. I do appreciate all the thoughtful, respectful, even challenging comments... but the rude ones are not necessary. I am one of the kindest people you will ever meet. I would never treat someone the way I've been unfairly treated and pursued on here...